Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

OOC board archives from Act V forums.
Controll
Posts: 88
Character: A Diabolist

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Controll » April 2nd, 2019, 1:19 pm

I'm sure all of the things you mentioned are indeed true. Magic is strong, and RP-wise that was always one of the reasons for the wish to see it restricted. My opinion is that I would still rather not see it debuffed, but instead see more ways to counter it and make other skills be more or less equally accessible.
These changes along with mechanics that prevent effective hybridization of magic and melee skills (I can elaborate if you want) have given mages an essential niche and any serious anti-mage sentiment would need to be driven entirely by roleplay and against the incentives making friends with mages have which can’t be replaced effectively other ways.
As long as I have played this has been the state of things. All anti-magical agenda is purely roleplay driven. Sometimes it is more popular, sometimes it is less popular. It really comes down to if players are willing to give up the quality of life spells offer to honor the story. As of right now it seems that they are not, which reflects on their characters, and thusly changes the story. I doubt the small mechanical changes you listed would change this state of affairs - and if Magic gets nerfed too much there would be no incentive to play one. Hogwarts seems to be choice of the playerbase.

Anti-magical sentiment is a part of Requiem's world history, however if it is not something players desire it might not be such in the future. Instead of nerfing Magic the only sustainable way to change their social desirability is to make other ways to achieve the same effects as their spells do. That is a long road and will require a lot of coding, but otherwise we just always find ourselves arguing that there is too much incentive to play a Witch or that there is too little of it.
Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I would ask Controll and Toroic how they would implement any changes or what they think would be the steps to accomplishing the bigger concepts of having players work towards creating that atmosphere in light of some of the potential pitfalls and friction points I pointed out?
As far as mechanics go I would agree with Toroic that rather than nerfing Magic alternatives to reach similar results should be made, and also would look at some epic level spell damages, but other than that I would not be after too many changes.

As far as the story goes I would like to expand on the Civil War. Nothing creates activity like conflict, and this conflict is one of the most important ones on Requiem. It is true that there is no rallying call to those that do not condone with Magic, and that voicing opinions against it might lead to your death. This is of course something derived from the world's history, so it could be either acknowledged, or the staff could help the anti-magically aligned side to organize.

Months ago the cult had a goal of establishing a "safe" spot for those that did not approve of Magic. In Fort Praesidium you may get imprisoned and executed for demanding radical action against Witchcraft. Those efforts proved to bear no fruit as it became more and more evident that NPC factions were indifferent of player characters and their troubles.

Personally I would approve of a secondary RPG hotspot with NPC guardians to be established besides Fort Praesidium. Ideally with two hotspots travel between the two would be open for everyone, however one would be tolerant of Magic and the other would be intolerant of it. This way player characters would be free to make a stance for whichever side. Eventually either of them would likely end up conquered by the other faction, allowing the players to feel like they are making an impact on the world, even if it just over some small areas in the Quarantine Zone. Plus it would make a for a great plotline. Characters with archetypes need a place to meet; if you build a castle for players on a medieval shard knights and nobles can meet each other without OOC channels. If you build a pirate port, characters of those archetypes can meet each other without OOC channels.

During Beta all factions had a safe haven of sorts, and their internal conflict generated a load of roleplay.

But these are just my opinions, and the staff will naturally direct the story wherever they wish.

Toroic
Posts: 18
Character: Elric Faust

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Toroic » April 2nd, 2019, 2:03 pm

revenant wrote: April 2nd, 2019, 12:49 pmHaving delved deep into the crafting system here, I would say it is far too early to compare what people would consider 'endgame' crafting (i.e. the last gear set a character will ever need) as I haven't seen that many artifact-level augments used in game if any. I can say, that yes, enchanting does provide a faster and in many cases easier route to good gear, but I can't objectively agree that epic and artifact augments on EO and MW armor and weapons are inferior to enchantments.
It could potentially be true that eventually someone has artifact or a full complement of epic augments on their armor, but I think we can pretty confidently say that enchantments will always have a value (since jewelry afaik doesn't take augments) and will be the predominant method for improving gear for at least the next year.
revenant wrote: April 2nd, 2019, 12:49 pmOn the poison front, it is possible to cure poisons above lesser poison. Talk to your local alchemist. If you are worried about poisons, anatomy provides a great boost to the cure potions, you just might need to drink a lot of them. These are routinely stocked at the crafthall and drop from a few creatures in game. This just goes into proper preparation and what I had mentioned regarding the need for something outside of a PvE tank attempting to go it alone against someone that invested multiple skill trees into magic or poisoning (poisoning + alchemy + skinning + agriculture to be remotely effective).
From what I have seen at the crafthall greater cure potions aren't available and regular cure potions gather dust, because one of the worst things about playing a tank oriented toward PvE is constantly bleeding money for repairs. There's little incentive for me to spend 10-20 silver plus 2 repair deeds (which put my character in a really bad position if crafters stop supplying them even for a weekend as we saw some weeks ago) and risk mort for potentially a recipe or some crap magic gear that just ends up disenchanted. If my intention was PvP then I'd absolutely use them and gladly, but there's not much reason for me to do that either right now. I like having the option for preparation, but the cost is unpleasant as my character already bears a greater financial cost than most during just normal operation (shields in particular wear out quickly). Rather not go or bring a mage in most cases.
revenant wrote: April 2nd, 2019, 12:49 pmEpic spells...I won't touch that one, I'm not familiar enough with every single one and all of their nuance. I have definitely dropped f-bombs when I see that meteor flying from the sky. I will stand by my previous assertion that followers are a game changer and having mages as basically the sole source to bringing them into existence is a huge boon. I have every confidence that in the future there will be some use to having a high int and being a non-mage (i.e. actually being able to use follower slots for something other than packhorses). When that happens, I feel that a lot of this discussion would be moot and why I won't call for any nerfs as I simply don't understand what is to come.
Followers would be a big if, and I can hardly imagine a situation where mages don't benefit more than non-mages do. I would be very surprised if given how rare mages are supposed to be if you could hire one, and mages can leverage their high intelligence so it's not a cost they need to pay for followers, and they also can aoe heal and cure poison which makes it much easier to maintain their followers. Tamers in UO tended to take magery for that reason. I think adding followers would just make non-mages superfluous.

We can't really discuss what might be, and I don't know if it's helpful to consider potential mechanics that may or may not be implemented at some nebulous point in the future.
revenant wrote: April 2nd, 2019, 12:49 pmI think hematology is underused for the same reason firearms are. There is a lot of investment of precious animus into skillpoints without a lot of understanding of the benefits. Alchemy on its own provides awesome stat boosts...not on the level of some of the spells, but in general across all functions. What would be interesting is in lowering the timer associated with potions at a certain skill level in the way that subterfuge can reduce the timer associated with bombs. I think that would make them more sought after.
I don't know enough about hemetology to know whether it'll ever become a similarly viable option. Right now though, I'm not seeing it used or hearing about it being used.
revenant wrote: April 2nd, 2019, 12:49 pmRex has been super forthcoming about the mechanics behind magic. I can say that without a doubt I have a better understanding of magic than at any other time. Objectively weighing the schools against each other is hard. I think it is even harder to talk about diabolism in any meaningful way, because no one has ever really survived long enough to see if it can stand the test of time. Hopefully that changes. I do think it is still really interesting that the hunt for diabolists is so high and that has remained about the only tenet of the lore that most adhere to. To your last point, I agree, should the vast majority of the shard say diabolism is fine, so long as only bad guys are brought back from the dead, then that would probably be the path that everyone remains on until an NPC comes along and squashes it.
Rex has been fairly forthcoming about mechanical questions in general, and it's something that I appreciate. However, even now I don't have a good grasp of what each branch of magic is capable of. I like the idea of it being a mystery and about discovery, but the reality is that those systems eventually turn into spreadsheets that remove all the mystery for established players and create a huge barrier for new players and those who are poorly connected. I think the whole concept of hiding what is now general knowledge about how the schools work starts out fun and exciting but as time goes on the benefits wear thin and the downsides linger or grow.

I would be able to tell you a lot more about the relative balance of the mage skills if I could look over a complete list of all spells, pour over the code to understand the mathematical underpinnings, and spend time testing them in game. That's approximately what my process has been to understand the melee mechanics. I still run into limitations there, but it's easier because I can look at a list of available perks at any time and at least construct a partial model of how they would interact. Right now I lack a lot of data due to a deliberate choice to not make it publicly available. What I have seen however makes me concerned about the relative status (both social and mechanical) of mages vs non mages both now and in the future.

I started this thread because I feel strongly that mages were designed and tuned around the assumption that they would take on some substantial and meaningful risks simply by existing. I don't see those risks returning, and given even 900 skillpoint mages still could have several power spikes as they gain epic spells they seem like they're going to continue to widen the divide.

Kadda
Posts: 45
Character: Basti

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Kadda » April 2nd, 2019, 2:30 pm

I love the idea of giving anti-mages, even anti-decusian pagan RP hubs to commit to their RP without sacrificing mechanical progression or causing conflict. Maybe Briars Hollow could a VIC enforced anti-mage hub for such players?

Outside looking in - magic seems to be incredibly fun for those who pursue it. It shouldn't be penalized, but rather the other systems need a boost. The reason we're all playing "Hogwarts" is because its such a developed system that it's the only thing to really watch unfold in regards to progression as we wait for story.

Newer systems have a daunting price of admission that is limited use schematics, expiring materials, RNG of crafting and research, and in some cases only using animus to raise skill. Thus the rate of progression is frustratingly slow, but that's a longer post down the road after the Transition.

Radomir Varga
Posts: 5
Character: Radomir Varga

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Radomir Varga » April 2nd, 2019, 3:13 pm

As someone who has hunted and killed several witches, hunting them is definitely feasible (whether or not you are maxed out), but certain builds and strategies work so much better than others. I feel magic should be OP when compared to mundane skills. It also brings a lot of danger with it (there's a lot more than just player-driven danger).

Some months back mages were hunted actively and Decus knows I did my part to make them seem oppressed. There was an OOC backlash from a certain part of the community, which I think may have affected how it might currently seem that mages have lost their leashes. The problem with this kind of conflict often is that people don't have the facts but act like they do, take IG actions as personal attacks and sometimes martyrize themselves for others, even when those others do not approve of it.

But worry not. You may not have been hunted, but I guarantee you there are characters in-game slowly gathering information, waiting for a time to act decisively.

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