Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

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Toroic
Posts: 18
Character: Elric Faust

Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Toroic » April 1st, 2019, 8:52 pm

I’m aware of diabolists in theory being kill on sight, and of anti-mage griefing of new players at the start of the act, but mages are in a very socially desirable position right now.

Mages are necessary for difficult pve content particularly with poison and also bring a lot of out of combat utility. They also uniquely have access to enchanting which is also going to be essential for the best gear.

I’m not seeing any oppression currently, their mage tower appears quite secure, and from a psychological perspective if the playerbase wanted to be anti-mage they would be locking themselves out of the hardest pve content (in theory the best drops) as well as all enchants. It would be self-defeating.

I feel like this anti-mage sentiment is supposedly a major part of the lore but the playerbase is also by design (due to aid not working on more than lesser poison and the enormous utility they bring) dependent on mages.

Am I missing something or is this oppression really not coming through in game for anyone else either?

Prometheus
Posts: 11
Character: IaintGotOne

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Prometheus » April 2nd, 2019, 2:22 am


Controll
Posts: 88
Character: A Diabolist

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Controll » April 2nd, 2019, 5:23 am

I believe you are missing something, though you are not to be blamed as I understand you are a new player, and much of the lore behind the anti-mage sentiment is actually not available on the website right now. I'll try to run through it, though the years might be a bit wrong.

First the Torment emerged (year 1313?) and 13 months after that the Resolve emerged to teach common folk Magic on a scale it had not been seen before. People drew some obvious conclusions and began to distrust the users of Magic. Some years after that (year 1321?) the Church officially denounced Magic as heretical on St. Paedrig's Day and started a period that was to be known as "Purge of the Witchkin". First this period was a time of right on genocide, however later the Church softened its policies and gave Witchkin the opportunity to live - provided they would use this spared life to serve the Church. This was the time of actual oppression, and also made two factions very powerful; the Venerated Inquisition Corps, and the Consortium. These two factions held very different ideas on how Witchkin should be treated. The VIC believed that they needed to be closely watched, gagged and collared and only be used as war machines of sorts. The Consortium believed that supervision of the Templarate and sworn allegiances were enough to show commitment, and that Magic - even if heretical - could also benefit society in other ways than fighting.

This rift eventually grew too great and resulted in what is known as The Three Hour War (around year 1341?) in Tor. The VIC executed a Consortium member for seemingly no reason, which started a bloody battle within the Capital. Supporters of both sides fought each other, and eventually the other factions including the Templarate sided with the Consortium rather than the VIC. Eventually the losing side had to flee the city. This marked an end for the Purge of the Witchkin, for many viewed it as Witchkin having fought for their freedom and the Church having granted it. Supervision of Magic was greatly loosened, nor was the usage of "numbered robes" a necessity any longer. In the eyes of many Witchkin liberated themselves.

Now the year is 1345. Only a few years have passed since the Three Hour War, and the decision is still all but settled. The VIC led by Naum Alexandrov had to flee Tor, however they still remain at open opposition against Redholme's College of Bishops that rules the Republic - and they still have many supporters. This is sometimes referred to as the Civil War. The Bishops still have their loyal Inquisitors, which may be confusing to some. The Templarate is now more stretched than ever, and has very little resourced. For the Consortium this means more liberty than ever before as they can now supervise themselves, but it also means that the faction's original purpose no longer applies.

Magic is exceedingly powerful and rightly so. Their spells might ensure victory against any foe - but at what cost? The motivations and ideas behind each group might become apparent if you consider Witchkin to be like chemical weapons. Nobody wants the enemy to have them. Some believe that it is alright if we have them, as long as we are cautious with them. Some people believe that they should not exist at all, but realistically someone is always going to have some.

As to why Magic is considered heretical there has never been an official explanation, however there is a bunch of speculations from many characters. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=696 explains what the "noob mage griefers" you mentioned believed (advertising yay!). Some characters don't need an explanation, but rather just believe in what they have heard.

So bottom line is the Republic no longer has a policy of oppressing Witchkin, but there is a long history of such and it has only recently began to end. The staff has not been in the habit of persecuting Witch characters on their own volition - this has been largely left for the players.

Currently the oppression and anti-magic sentiment is the terror that hails from that bloody past. Not many reasons are alright for a Kill on Sight, however the usage of Magic is - all Magic, not just Diabolism (though obviously a KoS is always lame). So as long as there are characters willing to persecute Witchkin, there will be persecution. If there are enough characters with such goals it might change the game story itself.

If you want to see persecution, you must start collecting some kindling yourself! Don't just wait for others to do it, because the others might be waiting for you.

Toroic
Posts: 18
Character: Elric Faust

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Toroic » April 2nd, 2019, 8:38 am

Control, I do understand that it was true on this server historically, and again, with how absolutely essential mages are mechanically the only rational choice for the playerbase not to cripple itself is to side with mages, not against them.

I don’t see it as a choice when melee have both poison and distress mechanics which require bleeding money for potions or magical healing as when it comes to harder content aid is unreliable.

As Klaus has proven, the pretext for KOS goes both ways with mages, not just against them. Again though, attacking a mage who is not otherwise your enemy is a stupid choice unless you are a mage yourself because their impact in combat is enormous with epic spells (which acquiring several of is realistically just a matter of time).

The story centers on mages, they are the most powerful build (any variety but especially those that can enchant) and the historical rp handcuffs are now off. I’m really not seeing any downsides to being a mage on requiem.

The downside to not being a mage however is that you need mages badly.

Controll
Posts: 88
Character: A Diabolist

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Controll » April 2nd, 2019, 9:06 am

I suppose I can understand that it is lame that as a Witch character you get all these cool spells but have to risk persecution, while as an anti-magicly aligned character you get nothing while also risking persecution (or even KoS).

Fighting spellcasters is something you actually need to build for a lot more than you need to build to play one, but with a proper skillset they are not that much of a threat. I personally enjoy the thought of specializing to fight Magic users.

I do not partake in PvE that much, so I am a bit at loss... why do you think magic users are so essential?

You are definitely not wrong with the fact that as of current there are no downsides to playing a Witch. My point was that this is something players themselves can change - however as of right now I doubt that will happen, because so many players consider the mechanics and absolutely having to get the top notch enchanted gear more important than the roleplay of the Republic firmly brainwashing everyone to hate anything magical for the past twenty years. This is unfortunately something that the players themselves must deal with - some things simply must be abandoned if you wish to play a character with a disdain for Magic. Right now as story goes choosing to play such a character means choosing to play an underdog - an outcast to many.

GM enforced persecution would likely lead to a lot of drama. If anything, story wise it would be nice if there was a second RP hub where the stance towards Magic would be negative. As far as mechanics go I would not change anything except give a buff to Magic Resistance. Right now nobody wants or needs that skill, even if they are building to fight Witchkin. It is a waste of skillpoints. MAYBE make the casting of certain spells longer, since their cast times are sometimes ridiculously quick.

Gladly the situation is not half as bad now that toxins, hematology, explosives and augments were introduced, so your Mundane Mike has much more variety than during beta.
Last edited by Controll on April 2nd, 2019, 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Prometheus
Posts: 11
Character: IaintGotOne

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Prometheus » April 2nd, 2019, 9:08 am

Nail on the head Controll.

Toroic
Posts: 18
Character: Elric Faust

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Toroic » April 2nd, 2019, 10:03 am

Controll, I appreciate you engaging in a helpful, honest, and open-minded discussion with me. It’s been informative.

I don’t personally want to play a witch hunter at all, but a reasonable understanding of player psychology will make it clear that the lore of “everyone told magic is bad” doesn’t align with what you experience with mages in game. I’d liken it to when they used to tell kids pot would ruin their life or kill them.

As far as PvE need for mages, it’s a 4 fold problem. The first is from the changes made when aid replaced healing from bandages. In vanilla UO two people without access to magic could heal even deadly and lethal poison just through the heal skill. Here, anything more than lesser poison requires a potion (minimum one silver each) or a mage, and some mage spells can heal though poison. It’s a problem for non-mages that was deliberately introduced.

The second mechanic is the distressed debuff which can be applied by players or creatures or traps and prevents use of aid and potions for what feels like 20 seconds at a time. Magic healing however continues to function. This mechanic is unique to Requiem.

The third mechanic is the existence of stamina draining spells. Against a cluster of black sail warlocks this renders a warrior unable to move or use any special moves as they spam this spell.

The fourth is minor but the changes to concussion blow make it from a useful anti mage tool to a nigh useless one with frankly bizarre mechanics and cases where you’d use it (it looks at the difference in percent between mana and health so it does max damage with low health and full mana, or no mana and full health. At 50% of both it’s useless)

Magic resist is still useful here but unless you have 40+ int it doesn’t actually reduce damage at all. it does however supposed to have a massive effect on status effect durations from spells, assuming it’s working properly.

The end result is that Aiwella which combines poison enemies with distress traps is a nightmare without mages because non-mages can’t really help each other. Bunyip is another such situation due to the poison it inflicts on melee hits. Either you blow any cut you might have had (before factoring in 1-2 repair deeds per hour of fighting) on greater cure potions (which I don’t believe anyone sells because mages are better and cheaper) or you get mage support.

Another relatively minor thing is mage buffs are far more cheaply able to be passed out than the hemetology equivalents both due to no additional skills needed and no material costs.

These changes along with mechanics that prevent effective hybridization of magic and melee skills (I can elaborate if you want) have given mages an essential niche and any serious anti-mage sentiment would need to be driven entirely by roleplay and against the incentives making friends with mages have which can’t be replaced effectively other ways.

My understanding from what Prometheus said in another thread is that balance decisions are made based on non-mechanical factors which would explain why I see such a glaring and persistent advantage given to mages in all areas.

They have the utility, enchanting is better than augments for adding special properties, some epic spells can one shot similarly to a subterfuge assassination. In the areas of pve, crafting, out of combat utility and pvp they are top tier.

Especially without RP handcuffs this state of things feels excessive to me.

revenant
Posts: 43
Character: Black

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by revenant » April 2nd, 2019, 11:05 am

Great discussion thread here!

I would like to add a few points on both sides.

1) I definitely appreciate Controll's point about not solely relying on the GMs to enforce public feelings regarding magic and mages as it can be inherently toxic to the relationships the GMs need to maintain with the entire playerbase and avoids, or at least mitigates, the development of an "us vs. them" in OOC context. That said, I also believe that players take cues from NPCs and the general tone and "feel" is set by the application of lore and current events to shape and incentivize how players and their characters act.

To this point, I think the most active faction and probably the largest is the Circle which makes witch-hunting or really the distrust (IG) of mages, a challenge when it is so openly condoned (not a problem, simply an observation).

This means that establishing a feel of at least distrust or skepticism amongst characters IG is difficult. I would argue that being outspoken about the lore Controll brought up would likely lead to the character being ostracized from the majority of the playerbase if not outright hunted.

2) Establishing a counter-narrative. This has been tried multiple times through multiple acts. I would argue that in Beta and in the current setting, anything that looks like curtailing open and brazen magic use (e.g. casting in the crafthall, running around with summoned non-undead within major population centers) would be met with singling out the outspoken character instead of generating support from the "mundane" standing around. Again, just an observation, but one which is slightly against what I presumed to be the foundational events in Tor.

I would take this thought further to Controll's point, and say that if a group of players emerged espousing these events it would have to form OOC as a group of players and friends and then move forward because the rallying cry simply isn't there. Having been on the fringe when the VIC reemerged, I can say that from a mechanical standpoint it was incredibly difficult, but still doable.
The biggest frustrations and what really seemed at times as being insurmountable were interactions and in precluding RP. I can think of a number a few players that thought I had personal beef with them, when really it just boiled down to characters having different opinions. On a smaller shard (i.e. under 50 logged in at a time) that is tough and these "foils" become more like NPCs if there is not at least some authoritative backing saying that the small faction may be in the right, which again can contribute to "us vs. them."

Long way of saying, I don't think that Controll's populus uprising will happen without some level of sanction or tacit support from GMs or without some people getting called out on how they play their characters (again, smaller playerbase and interacting with and accepting magic in very public forums occurs to keep the peace and to maintain OOC friendships - obviously exceptions, but those prove the rule).

3) Mechanics. There are a number of ways to effectively hunt anyone in game and I have yet to fully explore them all, so I can't really comment other than to applaud all the developers for the nuances of alchemy, poisoning, subterfuge, etc and to promise that I will explore them to find things that may be bugged. I will also say that if someone expects a PvE traditional knight build to work against a seasoned auditori, that person is probably going to be disappointed.

I will also say, that if and when the ability to hire mercenaries ever happens, that will likely be a game changer as the ability to bring more swords to a fight is and always will be a huge combat multiplier (pun intended).

4) Survivability and utility skills. These bleed off all those coveted and precious skillpoints. There are a few which I feel shift around based on the perceived level of danger and vulnerability/persecution/feel. From an analytics standpoint, I would be curious to see what the average perception skill is across the playerbase and how that changes based on the number of Songmaker announcements.
Being a data nerd, I would assume that after a PvP death that average goes up. I would also assume that the skill also is tied to how safe characters feel. In a PvE context, the skill is not overly useful. In a magic context, the skill is mostly negated through the use of an easy to acquire spell allowing for more investment into skills that make playing mages enjoyable in both PvE and PvP scenarios and thus increase the number of players with magic-using characters and therefore increase the difficulty in creating a playerbase that looks to live within the context of documents meant to feed the environment in which we play.

All of that to say, I can definitely understand the points made by all sides and how the staff is coming together to determine the best charter for the shard. Not wanting to hijack the thread, but I would ask Controll and Toroic how they would implement any changes or what they think would be the steps to accomplishing the bigger concepts of having players work towards creating that atmosphere in light of some of the potential pitfalls and friction points I pointed out?

Toroic
Posts: 18
Character: Elric Faust

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by Toroic » April 2nd, 2019, 12:24 pm

Revenant, I think the way to make people the happiest is to just accept that it’s going to be players siding with mages against all comers and instead of taking the nerf bat to mages look at ways to make non-magic options more competitive.

Augments vs enchantments is a pretty clear win for enchantments in most cases. Augment slots and recipes are a major limitation and the material costs are similar for some particularly desireable. Augments being better (and mw crafted armor always having the resists) would help muggle crafters have more of a niche.

Combat wise I would reexamine the decision to have aid be unable to cure anything beyond lesser poison. Venomous foes are common enough that this alone is a major reason to bring a mage along. Fixing some of the bugged or useless perks (Whirlwind hitting allies, I posted a verbose suggestion about shield wall’s issues already) would help bring them closer.

I also think the potency of epic spells should be carefully (re)considered. Their impact when used is enormous and LI for example in the last Anslem fight was able to use the magic trees frequently both on the way to Anslem and while fighting him. The rumor I’ve heard is that pagans get a powerful summon and ultimately I see the need for mages, but don’t see how mages will eventually need non-mages at all. They are the kings of range and can use summons to tank things for them, eventually.

I’ve yet to see the hemetology buff options but considering mages can maintain 20 strength 20 health buffs I’d be surprised if they are competitive for the costs.

Basically I think we should accept that a player threat to mages can’t exist as things are right now for all sorts of reasons and we should seek to curb mage upward bounds with epic spells as well as lessen the server’s dependence on mages. I think mages here seem fun to play and powerful, and spell research is an awesome mechanic. But I also feel like they’re potent as if playing a mage requires RP handcuffs and risk of death.

In any sort of conflict mages will have a better understanding of their capabilities and those of non-mages than non-mages will have of magic. This has secondary implications and partially why hunting mages is a bad idea.

It also makes clear analysis difficult because so much of the mechanics are hidden away. I’ve heard diabolism is more powerful than pagan or divine magic but clearly from the choices that player have made it’s not powerful enough to warrant large numbers of diabolists. If mages decided tomorrow “we aren’t killing diabolists on sight” the rest of the server would probably follow their lead and not KOS diabolists either.

Because like it or not, mages are the trunk of the server both in story and mechanics. Many of the other branches in other direction are fragile and weak in comparison.

revenant
Posts: 43
Character: Black

Re: Does anyone actually feel mages are oppressed?

Post by revenant » April 2nd, 2019, 12:49 pm

I guess I am a little confused. I had thought this thread was more so geared to the feel of the shard and not so much on the mechanics side.

Having delved deep into the crafting system here, I would say it is far too early to compare what people would consider 'endgame' crafting (i.e. the last gear set a character will ever need) as I haven't seen that many artifact-level augments used in game if any. I can say, that yes, enchanting does provide a faster and in many cases easier route to good gear, but I can't objectively agree that epic and artifact augments on EO and MW armor and weapons are inferior to enchantments.

On the poison front, it is possible to cure poisons above lesser poison. Talk to your local alchemist. If you are worried about poisons, anatomy provides a great boost to the cure potions, you just might need to drink a lot of them. These are routinely stocked at the crafthall and drop from a few creatures in game. This just goes into proper preparation and what I had mentioned regarding the need for something outside of a PvE tank attempting to go it alone against someone that invested multiple skill trees into magic or poisoning (poisoning + alchemy + skinning + agriculture to be remotely effective).

Epic spells...I won't touch that one, I'm not familiar enough with every single one and all of their nuance. I have definitely dropped f-bombs when I see that meteor flying from the sky. I will stand by my previous assertion that followers are a game changer and having mages as basically the sole source to bringing them into existence is a huge boon. I have every confidence that in the future there will be some use to having a high int and being a non-mage (i.e. actually being able to use follower slots for something other than packhorses). When that happens, I feel that a lot of this discussion would be moot and why I won't call for any nerfs as I simply don't understand what is to come.

I think hematology is underused for the same reason firearms are. There is a lot of investment of precious animus into skillpoints without a lot of understanding of the benefits. Alchemy on its own provides awesome stat boosts...not on the level of some of the spells, but in general across all functions. What would be interesting is in lowering the timer associated with potions at a certain skill level in the way that subterfuge can reduce the timer associated with bombs. I think that would make them more sought after.

Rex has been super forthcoming about the mechanics behind magic. I can say that without a doubt I have a better understanding of magic than at any other time. Objectively weighing the schools against each other is hard. I think it is even harder to talk about diabolism in any meaningful way, because no one has ever really survived long enough to see if it can stand the test of time. Hopefully that changes. I do think it is still really interesting that the hunt for diabolists is so high and that has remained about the only tenet of the lore that most adhere to. To your last point, I agree, should the vast majority of the shard say diabolism is fine, so long as only bad guys are brought back from the dead, then that would probably be the path that everyone remains on until an NPC comes along and squashes it.

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