Metagaming culture and spoilers

[Voidwards]

I have an inkling, that GT is a little too prevalent on Requiem. It's inevitable and - first and foremost - there's nothing wrong with it (as with GT itself). The problem I perceive is that with forum profiles' "Character" section and observing what happens on Discord it is rather easy to say who is, let's say, a mage or a thief.

Considering the general prejudice against mages, the amount of time/energy everyone puts into creating their own character, spoling such things kills the tension, takes away the element of looking for information ingame, risking being overheard by the members of the Church. It subjugates the sense of danger (when it comes to "bad" characters, not only mages) that is should be innate to Requiem.

In my view the GT should be something to overcome the game limitations and personal availability. Wanna trade? Sure, let's set up a meeting ingame and then let's leave the rest to the game itself. Wanna organise an event? Go ahead, PM me. But I want to know your characters from within the game, not from the OOC sources outside of it. As a player it is impossible for me not to think IC that you're not a mage, while your Discord/forum posts clearly reveal that (of course, it doesn't apply only to mages).

Allow me to invite you to discuss the matter, guys. What are your views on GT culture?

[Hagbard]

Hello Voidwards!
I hadn't heard the concept Game talk culture before, I believe this is what we refer to as metagaming?

While I'm not sure exactly what you mean by it, it has always been a challenge for people to keep their OOC knowledge separate from what their character knows.

I don't think there's anything that can be done except "encourage" people not to abuse information that they have, but their character doesn't.
Don't go spying on someone to catch them casting spells, just because you saw them ask about magery in the help channel, and such.

I say this for your own, and for others sake, it will simply be more fun if you try to limit yourself to what your character knows and has seen. To be fair, this act I have not personally noticed much of this behavior, and I think the current standard we have is very high.

[Controll]

It's true that if someone spends much time reading the OOC channels in Discord it's easy to figure out what sort of characters people do play... but I trust the players here to be able to keep IC and OOC seperate. Personally I enjoy acting oblivious of characters that I OOCly know to be thieves or mages or something else scorned upon, since it makes for great roleplay - but naturally it'd be even more fun if I did not know.

I think one reason for such prevalent game talk is that Requiem has very complex systems. Especially with the crafting system it can be a real time-consuming drag if you wish for something done, but can't talk to the crafter about what it is before meeting in game. Many things require multiple steps to craft, and it's impossible for a crafter to always have all the needed resources at hand.

But it's certainly true that if you write to the #trade channel asking for spellbooks or lockpicks people are going to realize what you are going to use them for.

[TheOriginalFive]

From my experience, I keep a list of what my character would logically know in the game itself as I am very absent-minded, although I haven't posted the aforementioned list publicly anywhere.

I've had previous experience casually roleplaying and designing a variety of characters so I could reasonably limit what Viola knows ingame versus what I know OOC.

I would hope that people don't use what they say in Discord to take advantage of the ingame characters themselves, personally. I don't, and if I accidentally did so, I'll apologize.

[Voidwards]

- trading OOC - perfect. As you've said, the systems are quite complex and Discord helps a lot with that. I see no harm in this.
- abusing what player knows (i.e. to hunt mages) - absolutely disgusting, dick move. We're on the same page here.
- roleplaying someone oblivious to said facts (heresy, magic, crime) while you as a player know it - it's simply not fun. You could have found out ingame, by accident, or just making a character trust you. Then the "hidden info" would be indeed surprising and rewarding. You can pretend not knowing about it, but you cannot pretend the loss of fun factor due to it being spoiled to you before.

Story can be roleplayed, the sense of discovery cannot.

[Hagbard]

I'm trying to understand what it is you want to discuss Voidwards, is your point that people should not be disclosing things that out them as mages, thieves etc OOCly?

[Domitian]

I think one reason for such prevalent game talk is that Requiem has very complex systems. Especially with the crafting system it can be a real time-consuming drag if you wish for something done, but can't talk to the crafter about what it is before meeting in game. Many things require multiple steps to craft, and it's impossible for a crafter to always have all the needed resources at hand.

This is the biggest challenge IMO. Maybe we need a "game advisors" list or something of people who volunteer to discuss and mentor on complex things so that they dont have to necessarily ask in the Help channel? I know we have AskTheStaff, but I feel like staff are a bit busy right now for general questions. I havent had a reply on mine for example, and that is ok, but after waiting a day or so I bet most people would just ask in Help, especially newer players.

As for a little Meta - I 100% agree on "in-game" knowledge and being very careful with it, but trade and such being fine on Discord. I even write "letters" in IC to send on Discord because I can only play for limited time each day (a few hours at night if I'm very lucky) that can contain things that my character would know in game and would be discussing with the other character (needing resources, finding a good hunting spot, nodes, etc). I logically explain this based on the fact that I'm controlling my character for 2-3 hours a day, and he is obviously doing stuff with the rest of his day while I'm not around. I dont have him "learn" anything from that that would be compromising in-game but it VERY much helps with the logistics stuff. If I had to RP all of that I'd never have time to gather materials, craft stuff, or beg people to find Salt and Eggs.

One final thought on meta - I know there is a huge hesitancy to share knowledge of how some systems work because the vets like to encourage people to discover it in game, but it gets a little frustrating when I see them running around with / using knowledge of the mechanics/systems gained from past acts and then not being willing to share it. Especially on the more obscure mechanics of Requiem.

This is no different than meta gaming in my opinion, and frustrates new players when we cant figure out how to acquire some item that would be easy from a IC perspective, but is hard from a mechanics perspective. I get very tired of hearing "figure it out, it's half the fun!" for things my limited play time don't give me a ton of time to experiment with on mechanics that would be obvious for my character but are not easily understood for the player. This is definitely hit-or-miss as some people are *very* helpful - just seems to depend on who is on, but it is a thought I wanted to put out there for you vets to consider.

[Dagger]

I was confused too about what "game talk culture" was referring to, but based on your response to Hagbard, I think you're referring to metagaming, so I'm going to treat those concepts like they're interchangeable unless you tell me I'm mistaken after all! Just so everyone responding to this thread can see and also understand where I'm going with this, this is a direct quote from the rules, found on the website:

Metagaming is strictly prohibited in any fashion. Metagaming is defined as the use of any knowledge garnered in an OOC fashion (via chat programs or any Requiem board post that is not explicitly listed as Common IG Knowledge) that directly affects the actions of your character. Use of knowledge garnered through these channels in order to plan your character’s actions is a sign of not only poor role-playing, but also of an immature player. If a player is found to be using this information they will be punished accordingly, to include jailing, perma-death and/or expulsion from the shard.

With this is mind, I do not feel that Requiem Act VI has the degree of metagaming that you suggested it might in your initial post. While there might have been infractions that I am unaware of, from my personal experience in game, every player has gone out of their way to roleplay their characters true to individuals inserted into the world with a set amount of knowledge that has then been expanded upon via in game interactions and acted on as the characters' personalities and agendas dictate.

A lot of information is shared between characters behind closed doors or where they believe others might not hear them. That does not mean the information is not being shared, which I think is an important distinction to make because there are some players who may be under the impression that information has been garnered through out of character interactions rather than in character interactions. That is not to say that there may not still be those players who will ultimately metagame, but from what I have seen in game, there's loads of this information sharing going on in character, and I have yet to see anything that couldn't be explained by in character interactions. I'm really happy with how dedicated people currently seem to be with abiding by this no metagaming rule, and I trust that if people start slipping up, they'll be held accountable, as the rules suggest.

So then I just wanted to respond to two things you referred to as aids to metagaming. You spoke of the dangers of using forum posts or Discord messages to gather information as a player that might be acted upon as a character thereafter. Whether they're the posted applications, the character legacy pages, in character roleplay posts, out of character discussions, or help requests, unless your character is interacting with someone else's character and information comes to light that way, the information that you, as a player, uncover via the forums or Discord isn't fair game to use. If there is any difficulty with distinguishing between what you, as a player, know, and what your character knows, I think TheOriginalFive posted a great suggestion: keeping notes for reference.

But it sounds like the goal of this thread is to stress that the magic of finding things out in character and in game prior to knowing them out of character is taken away when you look at the forums and Discord and can make sense of what mysteries your character might have solved in game without you ever having to try to solve them in character. I feel the same way, and I'm sure others do too. It's always a million times better to just find everything out in character and stay in the dark out of character until then. But I'll also be the first to admit that I love reading people's legacy posts and other roleplay posts on the forums. Previously, I would always be posting them because I loved the process and exploring the characters that way.

I think it just comes down to this: If you do not want to make any discoveries out of character because you feel it will negatively affect your in game experience, try to stay away from the forums and Discord. There are plenty of players who elect to never join the Discord channel at all, and many more use the forums to post their applications but then never return to them. You could avoid roleplay posts, legacy posts, and the Discord channel in particular - or just avoid all of it except for when you want to personally post something and follow that thread alone. I think that limits the out of character communication that leads to a better player experience, but that's just me. Some others would say it leads to a better experience for them.

[Carpenter]

My initial assumption is that we are always going to deal with some OOC knowledge while playing the game. Trying to eradicate all hints of OOC knowledge or specifically looking for instances of metagaming are going to be a bad time for everyone involved. Instead, I think we should focus on our shared responsibility to help each other tell a good story and to minimize the situations where we use OOC knowledge in a way that diminishes the story we are telling.

Being a big fan of collaborative storytelling, I want to consider where metagaming can be good for the story. It is tempting to think of ourselves as regular players who are here to be entertained. My perspective, however, is that we are all working towards a shared story and capable of introducing story elements to other characters’ stories. In essence, we are all Game Masters in charge of our narrow slice of the story. In this regard, I want to consider where out of character knowledge can help us make the story more engaging for others and – hopefully – fun for everyone involved.

Now, I understand that it is not exciting to know OOCly that the character you are dealing with is a mage when you could have discovered that fact about them in character. Shocking revelations and twists are as entertaining here as they are in literature. However, having this OOC knowledge presents you with story hooks you can try to employ IC. For example, you could look for a chance to have your character recount a personal experience that highlights their attitudes on blasphemous witchcraft without the intention to flush anyone out. From your character’s point of view, you are just taking a reasonable prompt in conversation to say something in which you believe strongly. You as a player still know that your character’s reaction is especially relevant to the other character and it makes for interesting story. The reaction will shape how your characters’ relationship develops and it will contribute to the atmosphere for the soulless leech you are playing with.

Similarly, you might know a character is making or using drugs. A benign example of using OOC knowledge to further the story would be to have your character give hints that they might be receptive to using drugs as well, if that is a potential weakness they have. That would give the dealer / user a hook they might exploit when interacting with your character. Used this way, OOC knowledge would further interaction and provide fun for all parties involved. The part that requires finesse is doing so without letting the other player know you are using OOC information:

“So, I do drugs,” said the man unprompted.
vs.
A scene where your character complains about hardships and how they wish they had something to smoke.

Like Controll, I delight in being blind to other characters’ misdemeanors when they are not blatantly obvious. I have an especially soft spot for wicked daekin worshippers, for I know how hard it is for them to get the materials they need. While I as a player know why they need specific ground reagents in certain amounts, I make sure to convey that my character is thoroughly oblivious to the nature of the transaction. I might also help with construction projects in strange places and never mention them to anyone, even though the projects might be very good gossip from IC point of view. These actions do not necessarily generate interesting twists in the story, and they may actually be thoroughly superficial as far as IC relationships go. However, my motive here is political. I am hoping to encourage diverse and difficult character concepts to flourish, which will hopefully make the world more fun for everyone involved.

Additionally, people are averse to taking risks and that is certainly true in high stakes environments where permanent death can be the result of alleged* diabolism recruitment gone awry. I think it would be perfectly fine for someone to ask to be contacted via a PM if they were looking for a dastardly group to be part of. Having a safe way to touch base could help some groups to get started and going. At the same time, I would totally applaud anyone trying to assemble a group of criminals without any OOC premeditation, because I can see the delight in trying to figure out how other characters would respond to less than legal advances from someone they trust.

Rambling aside, I would conclude that we are stuck with having OOC knowledge about each other’s characters and should do our best to use it responsibly in a way that furthers the story. When we learn something about another character OOC, we might want to consider how we can use that knowledge to interact with the character in a way that is fun for both parties. Reading Legacy posts sometimes inspires me to think about how I might be a part of a character’s ongoing story, for example.

While writing this, I also came up with a few good practices:

Firstly, I believe it is wise to keep critical information to yourself as far as possible. Not only does that make the game more interesting to others, but it also protects you from the feeling of having OOC information used against you. As Dagger pointed out, lots of IC exchanges happen when one is not looking, and it can feel like someone is targeting you based on OOC information even when that is not the case. Naturally, keeping secret stuff secret is a good way to discourage less than responsible use of that information as well.

Secondly, we should concern ourselves with secrets of other characters. It may be tempting to hype a cool concept you have seen in play, but you may accidentally give away information that another person considers harmful. For example, assessing how a certain character uses a skill in cool way can give others information on whether to regard the character a heretic or not, even if it is not your overt intention to comment on the degree of heresy in which the character participates.

Finally, I would like us all to be lenient and forgiving when it comes to mishandling of OOC information. It takes a fair bit of expertise to realize when OOC knowledge is affecting you subtly. For example, you might have assumptions about a character based on a player’s history and that might shape your interactions with a person whom your character has never met before. This may even be a good thing, if you know players with whom you can have a good synergy and dynamic stories. Similarly, it takes experience with the setting to know how to handle some mechanics and lore issues tactfully. You might know that all heathen blasphemers can benefit from Artisanry, but forget that the game world is full of artisan NPCs who can barely read. Excluding the most blatant instances of griefing and exploiting, I believe most people do not want to use OOC information to hurt others. In that vein, I think it is good to be respectful even when one thinks one has been slighted by mishandling of IC and OOC information. It is all too easy to forget about the broken phone types of situations, where one player might forget the given name of a character they met and accidentally pass on the wrong name to yet another player character. If the new person calls you Skywalker instead of Luke, it will definitely look like they are metagaming the floating name above your head while they feel they are using a name they were told by another character.

[Sic]

Id like to thank everyone for adding such well thought out and articulate responses to this post.

I would agree with the general sentinements of the players whom responded thus far. This project relies heavily upon garnering and perfecting the mindset of separating oneself from their character and becoming an involved player in the community as well. We have had numerous iterations of this project, and I have found that players whom propagate and actively associate themselves with a culture of treating the in character world as a D&D campaign rather than a more featured packed Among Us lobby tend to have more enjoyable encounters and storylines with their peers while also being able to speak about mechanics and such out of character without fear of retribution. Ideally, this is the sort of community we ultimately strive for, and I have seen numerous examples of players both old and 100% brand new adopt this mature outlook so far, and its very, very motivating. A community project such as this, in which players can separate their characters from their own personalities and everyone can trust in the mutual respect of such a thing makes the staff's job go from micromanging OOC behavior to making more content and having more fun events.

However, this mentality isn't for everyone - and that's absolutely fine. We encourage players in their application to omit information they don't want to risk being metagamed. We've also ever policed anyone's forum accounts or nicknames or banned players for using subterfuge or aliases on the forums. I can also tell you that the majority of players with something to hide at this point are fairly quiet about it. While we would like everyone to be comfortable enough as some people have in the community with sharing information, its not a prerequisite to being a member of the community. I'd also point out that its nice that players have trusted their fellow community members enough to be able to openly share such information without fear of meragamed reprisal.

All in all, if you don't feel comfortable reading about such information, especially in the period of time we are in now where were actively seeking feedback and reports on things that don't work to include sensitive game mechanics, I'd suggest maybe throwing the main channel on mute and sticking to the help room for a while until we're out of beta and things start moving forward at a more quick and deadly clip.