(Hopefully) Final comments and suggestions regarding magic review

For issues concerning magic, spells or enchanting.
Post Reply
Mektor
Posts: 88
Character: Mektor

(Hopefully) Final comments and suggestions regarding magic review

Post by Mektor » July 30th, 2021, 8:22 pm

Hello,

As magic review is coming to an end, I’d like to give a few suggestions of things it would be nice to see before wrapping everything up. I don’t have all spells, so I can only comment on those I could test.

Overall : Looking forward to the re-enabling of resist-modification spells. With the addition of spell penetration, I don’t know that there is still a reason to have those disabled.

Auras : I would recommend lowering the duration AND cooldown of auras to 10 seconds. 20 seconds is too long, and being unable to turn them off is a pain in the ass. Having a shorter duration also imposes more rotation.

General arcana is in a good state regarding balance. It’s more about some spell tweaking.

Newchain-lightning system is a bit of a letdown because of the delay. If you use it on an enemy that dies, it will not bounce. That being so, it rarely ever happens. Enabling it to work even when enemy dies, and making it happen faster would make it tremendously better.

Dispel : Dispel has 2 purposes right now -- dispelling summons, and removing Magic Reflect. It would be nice if Dispel could be used to remove buffs, either on enemies or ourselves. For instance, if you could remove someone’s Shapechange, Bless, Cunning, Arcane Empowerment. This would also help solve the whole “having to wait for buffs to expire before putting them again” issue.

Energy Field : Mana could be lowered a bit. I can’t seem to find the difference between that spell and the epic version (Divinus Contego), which requires 90 skill but cost 4 times less mana.

Sanctuary (currently disabled) : Not sure if the spell was being abused, but it having a fixed duration instead of mana drain over time would solve the duration issue.

Magic Trap/Untrap (currently disabled) : It would be nice to have those work as basic UO functions. No need to overcomplicate things by implementing a subterfuge temporary skill buff equivalency like there is for Unlock. Having even a small trap is a useful deterrent against snoops.

Feather : It would be nice if this worked on stacks of heavy items such as heavy stone, lumber, etc. Its counterpart, weight, currently works on stacks.

Enchant : I’ve reported in-game that Enchant (30% random weapon enchant) currently lasts shorter than Curse Weapon ((40% life leech). They are not cumulative, which is fine. Right now, once the enchant expires, the weapon keeps the tag “(enchanted)” which prevents you from using it again. It seems broken. Tag and buff should last the same so it can be renewed. Would also be a great improvement for possible hybrids if this spell allowed you to choose which enchant to get. Right now, it’s really a giant gamble and I can’t imagine someone using this spell over Curse Weapon.

Curse : Supposed to reduce a character’s strength and magical resistance. Currently reduces strength by 1 and nothing else (although repeatable). Not sure why it’s not simply the usual OSI Curse reducing stats by 10% or so. Otherwise, earlier comment regarding Resist-affecting spells apply.

Archmagic

New mechanics are really fun to play with. I do believe Shatter needs a bit of a nerf on the double damage when frozen (maybe 20%) as it can give some pretty crazy numbers right now. That spell alone makes or break the whole school, and having it makes it so someone could run around with nothing but it and own faces.

Mana Vampire (epic spell) could use with either a mana cost reduction or an increase in mana vam..pired? Right now, any caster (i.e. those with mana) will make it so it costs more mana than you get back. Seems silly to cast this spell on squirrels.

Evil Omen is supposed to “curse a target so the next harmful spell” hurts worse. In reality it temporarily reduces Arcana Resistance by 1 point. Arcana resistance gives 1% dmg reduction per 4 skill point. So in truth, this spell increases spell damage by .25% (assuming you cast a basic spell with no spell penetration). I think it would be fair if the spell worked off either Intellect or Archmagic Arcana. Something like reducing Arcana resistance by Int/3 (max of -50; i.e. +12,5% dmg) or Archmagic Arcana /3 (max of -40; i.e. +10% dmg). Would seem about fair.

Divine Arcana

Not much to say. New system (Heat Stacks) is nice to play with, but may require some setup. Truth be told, it’s still not enough to make it on par with other schools who have virtually infinite mana. Maybe the new moriums will help with that.

IMO, it would be nicer if the heatstacks system was a 1-2-punch instead of a 1-2-3-punch. In a long battle, it would make sense to keep it like that. But most fights in UO are super short. The issue being right now that when you cast the Crit spell, you immediately get 1 stack. Would it be possible to make it so it is 1-2-punch and any spell cast on the punch does not add a stack (maybe locking it to 0 for a sec?).

That is all.

Thanks for the magic review. It is hard to say where mages are now compared to where they were before. They are still very powerful, but it requires a lot more to be so (and especially, more spells).

(Just to give a general idea, the Thunderstorm battle against the wolves was done using an uncommon spell of the General Arcana (Holy Lightning). Right now, Strength mostly comes from Epic spells, which benefit from spell penetration. Those do not come as easily. That being said, I did some sparring today and got 1 shot (almost 200 dmg). So there is that.)

Mektor
Posts: 88
Character: Mektor

Re: (Hopefully) Final comments and suggestions regarding magic review

Post by Mektor » August 3rd, 2021, 7:53 pm

Hello (again!)

Given recent changes, I would like to put a few suggestions out there.

These suggestions regard what to do with skill-modifying abilities, especially those that are int-based. Some were removed in prior patches (for instance Invisibility giving Hiding = to Int), many were removed yesterday. I'm worried that this indicates they will either be absent a long time, if they ever return. In the meantime, players who used them have their builds seriously impacted, and have no guidance as to what to do since it is unknown if these spells will return, and if so, how.

With that in mind, I'd like to suggest a moderate approach to speed things up. The idea of an int-based spell is not bad, as it affects spells which are otherwise unaffected by intellect, SDI, and so on. The problem was the scale of it. So why not simply make them buff the related skill without it being so grossly out of proportion?

This suggestion is similar to what was recommended in the above post regarding Evil Omen : an int-based calculation that is much weaker than its previous iteration. I would recommend something like Int/5 for buff timer.

Assuming Int is 150 (max), in practice, Spell Shield, instead of raising Arcana resistance to 150, would increase it by 30. Deathly Obsession would increase Diabolism by 30. Intensify would increase Arcane Incantation by 30 (though I still argue this should not be a diabolism spell, but a general one (I'd argue for Archmagic but they already have arcane empowerment which is similar)).

That way, the spells keep a use, although highly diminished, but are not overpowered. It also ensures that they will always be useful as even at 120 skill, it will not go higher than 150. With a much lower cap (30 instead of 150), it also ensures that players have to keep their skills at a high level to play and can't make a cheesy build like the ones that were possible before.

I also believe we should get rid of the lockpicking bonus of Unlock, and replace the spell with a chance of unlocking a door as if the person had Int/2 Lockpicking with an added morium check. It will remove cheesy builds of someone who would've raised lockpicking to GM for perks then removed it all, and kept it capped with spell + clothes (the same way the invisibility patch removed cheesy hiding builds). The morium check makes it so it could not be abused, and it would only work with fairly bad locks since it would act as a 75 lockpicking check was made. Cast time could also be increased. Last of all, let's remember it does not work on house doors and cannot be done while stealthed, so best case scenario it will allow mages to unlock shitty boxes in dungeons.

These suggestions go in the same vein as the Magic Trap suggestion : Mages don't need more special, tricky, spells or mechanisms, and they have already taken up a lot of the staff's time. Implementing those spells as simple mechanics would allow the development to move on to something else while offering mages a solid, working set of spells right now, than a long and indetermined hiatus of uncertainty.

As a disclaimer, unlike IG propaganda, I do not use Diabolism, so the only spell I used in that list is Spell Shield, which I can live without.

Meowakin
Posts: 165
Character: Elsea Hunter

Re: (Hopefully) Final comments and suggestions regarding magic review

Post by Meowakin » August 4th, 2021, 6:54 am

I really like the Magic Unlock suggestion, +1 on that.

I'm also not particularly reliant on any of the skill boost/set spells, though I believe the loss of Precision heavily affects my PvP survivability (theoretically, never tested).

Controll
Posts: 88
Character: A Diabolist

Re: (Hopefully) Final comments and suggestions regarding magic review

Post by Controll » August 4th, 2021, 1:43 pm

I already suggested this before too, but I've understood that there is a design baseline when it comes to magic utility skills that copy, or increase skills players usually have to actually raise to enjoy, that a mage should be able use 50% of the full potential of such a skill through the use of spells. Directly raising skills with an amount only makes it easier to achieve full potential of the skill. This is why I think it would be more sensical if such buffs raised a skill to a level, not by an amount.

For example a spell raising lockpicking skill could raise it to Intelligence / 2, meaning a mage at 150 Intelligence could have the benefits of 75 lockpicking without having to invest any skillpoints in the skill - however if the mage already had 50 lockpicking they would only get a skill increase of 25 points, and if they had lockpicking at 75 or over it they wouldn't get any benefit at all (and probably wouldn't want to use the spell).

This way mages could use 50% potence versions of skills and utility things without having to actually get the skills related, however magic would never make them better at said skill than their mundane counterparts that did raise the skill - nor would it be easier for them to master the skill.

Mektor
Posts: 88
Character: Mektor

Re: (Hopefully) Final comments and suggestions regarding magic review

Post by Mektor » August 4th, 2021, 7:17 pm

I understand your suggestion but mages are so versatile as it is, I think it would be insulting to others if on top of that, we were given an easier path to mastery where others must invest full skills (we were with Hiding, and still are with Lockpicking). Maybe what you say is how it was in the previous act, but I'm not sure that is the objective of meta in this new iteration - i.e. more balanced mages.

When it comes to spells mimicking abilities, mages, I believe, should be more "jack-of-all-trades" who can not achieve, through the use of spells, something equal to someone who invested full points into a skill.

Meowakin
Posts: 165
Character: Elsea Hunter

Re: (Hopefully) Final comments and suggestions regarding magic review

Post by Meowakin » August 5th, 2021, 6:13 am

Controll wrote: August 4th, 2021, 1:43 pm I already suggested this before too, but I've understood that there is a design baseline when it comes to magic utility skills that copy, or increase skills players usually have to actually raise to enjoy, that a mage should be able use 50% of the full potential of such a skill through the use of spells. Directly raising skills with an amount only makes it easier to achieve full potential of the skill. This is why I think it would be more sensical if such buffs raised a skill to a level, not by an amount.

For example a spell raising lockpicking skill could raise it to Intelligence / 2, meaning a mage at 150 Intelligence could have the benefits of 75 lockpicking without having to invest any skillpoints in the skill - however if the mage already had 50 lockpicking they would only get a skill increase of 25 points, and if they had lockpicking at 75 or over it they wouldn't get any benefit at all (and probably wouldn't want to use the spell).

This way mages could use 50% potence versions of skills and utility things without having to actually get the skills related, however magic would never make them better at said skill than their mundane counterparts that did raise the skill - nor would it be easier for them to master the skill.
To be clear, this is how it works. But because skill clothes exist, you could have zero points in the skill and reach max skill even at 70 skill. And that little work around probably shouldn't exist.

Also, I feel like there may have been a misunderstanding about what was being said there, ha.

Meowakin
Posts: 165
Character: Elsea Hunter

Re: (Hopefully) Final comments and suggestions regarding magic review

Post by Meowakin » August 5th, 2021, 7:10 am

Since I took things for a spin yesterday, I can at least comment on the new archmagic/general features.

I actually really like the chain-lightning mechanic, though it not triggering if it would kill a target is definitely a negative against weak targets. That said, I did find it made using E-Bolt when facing 2+ enemies rather effective.

The chill effect from Archmagic seems almost too easy to get 3 stacks, in large part due to the frozen feet perk triggering stacks at such a high speed. Applying an extra stack immediately and then another every .5 to 1 second while a target stands in it means easy freezing. And that is without having access to Shatter (side note, 'core' mechanics relying on a singular spell that a mage may not have for days/weeks is ??? - pagans have the same problem with goodberry still so far as I'm aware).

I do like how this lead to me making mixed use of Archmagic/General/Pagan spells, but I'm reasonably certain if I had Shatter then Pagan spell usage would be relegated to simply heals/buffs/familiars, since I was using it largely for my 'single target' damage in this instance. General seems effective for AoE (against sturdier targets) and Archmagic provides significant CC for PvM thanks to the frozen feet effect working the way it does.

Lilith
Posts: 8
Character: Lilean

Re: (Hopefully) Final comments and suggestions regarding magic review

Post by Lilith » August 19th, 2021, 11:52 am

I'll join in with my input:

- The cooldown on summons seem a bit too harsh in proportion to how well they survive. Those especially which take less slots are very hard to keep up (like vampire bats or adders). Some of them get insta-killed by harder-hitting monsters. Maybe some of the summons, especially the melee-ones could have the cooldown tuned down?

- Could we have stealth prevent auto-attack? I think disease stacks or poisons cause you to re-aggro targets even when you're hidden, so whenever I slip into shadows my characters reveal themselves by auto-attacking any surrounding enemy. I can't count the number of times this have gotten me a KO and a mort even when I've tried taking preventative measures for it (such as toggling war-mode to reset the auto-attack).

- Being able to teleport on an occupied tile would help greatly with the spell targeting and aggro-management. Teleport in general has a really cumbersome targeting due to lack of proper LoS-indicators, weirdly shaped terrain and invisible "teleblocking" tiles. On another shard the ability to teleport on party members/PvE targets helped a great deal with targeting problems and aggro-management, I thought that could be a welcome quality-of-life change

Post Reply